Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

[Nqss[RUS]]

we did couple ffa's and 2v2 , mines were used but
but they are visible most times , i had succes with mines and grenades couple times but after that enemy started to avoid all of it easily
mines , because he saw them
nades , because it takes some time to throw them

man , i killed striders with vorts , but couldn't handle hunters
because of the speed , and huge splash damage they got , they just run around your units and kills them (if you got units in one pile , they are almost all dead after couple brusts , there is no button to make them spread)

[HEVcrab]

Yeah, the spread formation function is really necessary. Sticking together is a really suicidal stupidity against hunters, strider cannon and explosives.

[HEVcrab]

Now, when AR2 and SG unlocks are removed, Rebel Veteran and RPG unlocks should cost 5r, the same as Combine Elite/Sniper unlocks.

Currently Veteran\RPG unlocks cost 10r 5s.

[Sandern]

Now, when AR2 and SG unlocks are removed, Rebel Veteran and RPG unlocks should cost 5r, the same as Combine Elite/Sniper unlocks.

Currently Veteran\RPG unlocks cost 10r 5s.

Agree, I'm not sure why we have a price difference between those unlocks in the first place

[Nqss[RUS]]

another crazy idea to turn everything upside down

1. Scouts - delete from HQ , add them to the Barracks
Arm them with smg
Give them limited energy (which drains when they invisible , 100 energy , 15 energy to cloak , -2 energy per second , cant shoot in cloak)
Give them pretty high cost (3r / 2s)
+ I would find them more usefull this way againist Combines , who can build many defensive stuff (i mean , there is ALOT OF defensive stuff)
+ Observers comes more handy
2. Partisans - back in action , as unit which can be built only in HQ (cant spam them with one building)
+ they are not swarmy due to a single bulding which can produce them
+ actually good replacement for the scouts (as i dont find them handy)
3. Manhacks - make them one per metrocop (EVER) or add energy cost to them (1r 2e)
+ prevent swarming those at early game and wiping out enemy
4. Hunters - should get increased cost of energy (about 4e) and be able to shoot only when not moving (like in the game)
+ prevent running around hunter , wiping out everyone while being barely touched
+ lowering thier number

[HEVcrab]

another crazy idea to turn everything upside down

1. Scouts - delete from HQ , add them to the Barracks
Arm them with smg
Give them limited energy (which drains when they invisible , 100 energy , 15 energy to cloak , -2 energy per second , cant shoot in cloak)
Give them pretty high cost (3r / 2s)
+ I would find them more usefull this way againist Combines , who can build many defensive stuff (i mean , there is ALOT OF defensive stuff)
+ Observers comes more handy
2. Partisans - back in action , as unit which can be built only in HQ (cant spam them with one building)
+ they are not swarmy due to a single bulding which can produce them
+ actually good replacement for the scouts (as i dont find them handy)
3. Manhacks - make them one per metrocop (EVER) or add energy cost to them (1r 2e)
+ prevent swarming those at early game and wiping out enemy
4. Hunters - should get increased cost of energy (about 4e) and be able to shoot only when not moving (like in the game)
+ prevent running around hunter , wiping out everyone while being barely touched
+ lowering thier number

The scout suggestion is interesting) if so, they should have more health than current 35 - maybe 80, a little less than the engineer.

For the partisan: as a low-cost unit available at HQ only, rebel faction already has engineers with 2r cost, 20 seconds recruiting time and full SMG firepower, which are much stronger than partisans with 1r cost/15 sec time and limited accuracy.

For the metrocops: maybe OK. It would probably make even more sense if each of them had 1 deployable weapon of any kind (manhack, floor turret, 3-mine set) ever, to prevent turret spamming and overpowering (they gonna have an upgrade to SMG).

[Sandern]

another crazy idea to turn everything upside down

1. Scouts - delete from HQ , add them to the Barracks
Arm them with smg
Give them limited energy (which drains when they invisible , 100 energy , 15 energy to cloak , -2 energy per second , cant shoot in cloak)
Give them pretty high cost (3r / 2s)
+ I would find them more useful this way against Combines , who can build many defensive stuff (i mean , there is A LOT OF defensive stuff)
+ Observers comes more handy
2. Partisans - back in action , as unit which can be built only in HQ (cant spam them with one building)
+ they are not swarmy due to a single building which can produce them
+ actually good replacement for the scouts (as i don't find them handy)
3. Manhacks - make them one per metrocop (EVER) or add energy cost to them (1r 2e)
+ prevent swarming those at early game and wiping out enemy
4. Hunters - should get increased cost of energy (about 4e) and be able to shoot only when not moving (like in the game)
+ prevent running around hunter , wiping out everyone while being barely touched
+ lowering their number

The scout suggestion is interesting) if so, they should have more health than current 35 - maybe 80, a little less than the engineer.

For the partisan: as a low-cost unit available at HQ only, rebel faction already has engineers with 2r cost, 20 seconds recruiting time and full SMG firepower, which are much stronger than partisans with 1r cost/15 sec time and limited accuracy.

For the metrocops: maybe OK. It would probably make even more sense if each of them had 1 deployable weapon of any kind (manhack, floor turret, 3-mine set) ever, to prevent turret spamming and overpowering (they gonna have an upgrade to SMG).

For the scout: we could also consider renaming the scout to something like a "saboteur" and give it additionally (unlockable) abilities like placing mines and/or explosives.

[HEVcrab]

For the scout: we could also consider renaming the scout to something like a "saboteur" and give it additionally (unlockable) abilities like placing mines and/or explosives.

Reading this I had a nostalgic reminiscence of Commandos

Saboteur is very Rebel-like, cool idea)
I think combine mines are sort of cumbersome and suit an Engineer more, so the unlockable remote/clock-detonated explosives and initially available trap (like in Commandos, to bring down a single infantry unit by maiming) would be the right weapons for a saboteur.

Another association I had were TF2 Spy's activities on disabling floor turrets.

UPD: In fact, scout and saboteur don't exclude each other and could work together A scout infiltrates at one corner of the base, distracting the combine player, and then a saboteur reprograms/blows up a turret at the other side)

[Nqss[RUS]]

i dont see that tactic ever happen in the game , about scout distracting and sabouter hacking during the time
according to the facts of range , base sizes , HP and players skill , both units will be dead and that will be a bad idea to begin with
I would say that Pandago wouldn't do so and probably would got me by surprise by huge amount of sabouters and then cut off with regular rebels , then just finish off

[Yurtex]

i dont see that tactic ever happen in the game , about scout distracting and sabouter hacking during the time
according to the facts of range , base sizes , HP and players skill , both units will be dead and that will be a bad idea to begin with
I would say that Pandago wouldn't do so and probably would got me by surprise by huge amount of sabouters and then cut off with regular rebels , then just finish off

Nah, he just gonna spam you with ar2 in first seconds of the game.

[pandango]

i dont see that tactic ever happen in the game , about scout distracting and sabouter hacking during the time
according to the facts of range , base sizes , HP and players skill , both units will be dead and that will be a bad idea to begin with
I would say that Pandago wouldn't do so and probably would got me by surprise by huge amount of sabouters and then cut off with regular rebels , then just finish off

Nah, he just gonna spam you with ar2 in first seconds of the game.

pff, I never get AR2

[Yurtex]

i dont see that tactic ever happen in the game , about scout distracting and sabouter hacking during the time
according to the facts of range , base sizes , HP and players skill , both units will be dead and that will be a bad idea to begin with
I would say that Pandago wouldn't do so and probably would got me by surprise by huge amount of sabouters and then cut off with regular rebels , then just finish off

Nah, he just gonna spam you with ar2 in first seconds of the game.

pff, I never get AR2

Now you even doesn't need to have an upgrade, just get a munition depot.

[HEVcrab]

i dont see that tactic ever happen in the game , about scout distracting and sabouter hacking during the time
according to the facts of range , base sizes , HP and players skill , both units will be dead and that will be a bad idea to begin with
I would say that Pandago wouldn't do so and probably would got me by surprise by huge amount of sabouters and then cut off with regular rebels , then just finish off

Yes, I was wrong with S&S working together. I just mean that these units are for different purposes and don't exclude each other.

To avoid spamming by saboteurs, they should be recruited at HQ with unlock at Munitions Depot, or at Special Ops.

[Nqss[RUS]]

there is not going to be a problem with spamming saboteurs if there will be cost and health barrier
they sure can be usefull as they are , in barracks , with weak health , only one gun (smg) and cloaking ability
suggestion about puuting them into the very end of tech line is pretty much means "nerf to death" beacuse at the moment rebel player cant pass that deep into tech tree with combines spamming manhacks and wiping them out at the beginning

i dont see any use of the scouts
they just.....can unlock map faster and...thats it
their weapon sucks , their health sucks , they just can be cloaked , but there is no unit in early game that needs range help nor in later game.

Observers which cant be detected by scouts AND which can provide help to combine snipers , to help them to be out range of enemy sight , yet killing them - now that the tactic , which i actually saw been used and by that point i couldn't counter it with ANYTHING that rebels have

Now digging deeper in what i was thinking , since i had alot of time for that
just my opinion on possible gameplay changes , as usual

Partisans as a HQ unit
+Partisans can be upgraded with 5 scrap to regular rebel
Now possible tactics for that is simple , after early game , if you survived , but had some losses AND have some partisans left (after battle rebels do gain some scrap by killing enemy units) , they can easily backup and counterattack
easy backup , but still cant be spammed and requere you to get scrap
also additional firepower at early game (mixed units with regular rebels)
Saboteur / Demolisher / YOu pick the name as barracks unit
no unlocks , nothing special for this guy needed , to get him as a basic and yet tacticlal rebel unit
except it has some downsides :
lower then rebel heatlh
smg only
limited cloak
price (3r as rebel + 2 scrap)
There could also be an ability to hack such units as turrets and mines , to switch their team , which requere to be uncloaked and drains enegry

Metrocops
Well , those guys , can have thier own types of unlocks
Like , several different types of the metrocop
-Manhack unlock (1 power)
mtrocop armed with pistol , can deploy manhacks (manhack price 1r 3p)
-Turret unlock (1 power)
mtrocop armed with pistol , can deploy turrets
-SMG unlock (1r 2p)
metrocop armed with smg (like in the game)
-Shotgun unlock (1r 2p)
metrocop armed with shotgun (like in the game)

Possibly changing the buildings which you have to build
Instead of "armory" , rebels can have "Laboratory" , which will have not onl different image / name but also some different effects
Such as :
RPG rebel doesn't need to be created in special ops anymore , it just becomes available at the barracks
No veteran rebel
WEapons unlocks as they are (nade , mines , shotguns - cheaper and faster , AR2)
Unlocks for Saboteurs , which increases their cloaking powers
Unlocks for Saboteurs , which allows them to hack the turrets and mines (by the time COMBINES can create those , rebels can hack them , to counter)
Teleportation devices unlock , so rebels can build them and travel the battlefield easily (as in the end of EP2 rebels delivered anti-strider weapons)
No special ops building
Triage center also have healing aura
Combine HQ deploys mines at choosed area
Instead of metrocops deploying those , HQ of Combine can send (from its center) 3 Synth observers , which can deploy 9 mines at choosed are , which is in the range of players fog of war.
This trick cost Req , Pow and HQ energy

[HEVcrab]

Headcrab cannisters currently carry regular headcrabs only. There's no reason for such limitation, in HL2 each rocket contained one of the three existing HC types.