Dysotopianism resource management in HL2Wars :-)

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Re: Dysotopianism resource management in HL2Wars :-)

Post by PuNkD_ » Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:46 am

I think that metal gathered From Scrappiles and power and that kinda sh*t, doesnt follow the storyline..
My idea is making one overall resource: Supply
that would in my eyes work quite well.. You remember the Streetwar chapters in half-life2?
in these chapters (cant remember wich), in an instance you help some rebels retake their Supply tunnel.. so what i had in thought was to implement something in the mapping where u set some new entity outside playerview borders, and from here some rebels with crates are busy running back and forth between this entity and some Supplybuilding..
This is not intirely thought through.. but i think its kewl
you are reading this.

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Re: Dysotopianism resource management in HL2Wars :-)

Post by DoctorWeeTodd » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:13 pm

PuNkD_ wrote:I think that metal gathered From Scrappiles and power and that kinda sh*t, doesnt follow the storyline..
My idea is making one overall resource: Supply
that would in my eyes work quite well.. You remember the Streetwar chapters in half-life2?
in these chapters (cant remember wich), in an instance you help some rebels retake their Supply tunnel.. so what i had in thought was to implement something in the mapping where u set some new entity outside playerview borders, and from here some rebels with crates are busy running back and forth between this entity and some Supplybuilding..
This is not intirely thought through.. but i think its kewl
Hi I'm new but I just wanted to drop by and state that I wholeheartedly support this idea. Resource collection and the training of units in RTS games has shown to be my least favorite part of that style of gaming. I find it not only tedious but many times it is simply a lapse in logic and realism (Why would a military need collect and assemble items on the battlefield which are usually shipped to them at large quantities?) That is why I prefer games where you meet reinforcements instead of train units and hunt for resupplies instead of produce currency. Lately I haven't even been able to pick up a traditional RTS, Full Spectrum Warrior's style of cover and evasion gameplay and Homeworld's unique flight system seemingly replaced them until Tiberium War and this Mod came along.

In Half-Life 2, you never saw units scavenge raw materials to transform into building material (GMod is not HL2) nor Barracks churning out new recruits johnny on the spot. Resources were collected by the Citadel for the Combine and the rebels prepared their war toys behind the scenes. However you met up with reinforcements and searched for already assembled supplies scattered around the map. For the sake of consistency, why should it be different here?

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Re: Dysotopianism resource management in HL2Wars :-)

Post by Rogabeetah » Sun May 25, 2008 12:22 am

DoctorWeeTodd, you are completely right. Perhaps any of you heard of the Seven Hour War?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Hour_War

All of Earth's armies were decimated in a mere seven hours! If some rebels built up a barracks or base, it would of easily been seen and destroyed(with the exception of White Forest).
I personally don't think the rebels are organized enough(or have enough people) to form up a modern army to combat the Combine head-on, which is why I think it would be better for
fighting to be done "on the move" instead of building. Sure, territories AND safe-houses COULD exist, but only temporarily since the Combine have a larger army.

So generally, I believe combat should be tactical. There just aren't enough human beings left on Earth to churn out disposable soldiers. Although recovering refugees is complicated sounding...It may be the only realistic resource in the game. Perhaps have the refugees be unarmed, hiding at a certain apartment complex, doing slave work for Civil Protection, or be on a Razor Train heading out to some Nova Prospekt-esque transformation facility, and your rebels can save them? This would mean that there would be a lot less units early in the game, but then you could always have living units from previous maps transition into another map. This way, a campaign can become larger scale torwards the end, much like Homeworld.

Another idea I had been toying with was the scrap metal idea as previously posted. Having it as a primary resource would just not fit that well, but maybe have it as a RARE resource? If you look at Starcraft, Vespene Gas(the secondary resource), was a rare commodity that allowed the building of stronger units. Perhaps for rebels, unarmed units can be sent to collect the few salvageable scraps around the map to build add-ons on outposts. The scrap won't be used to mass-produce anything, but only construct small items. Perhaps have the same units that collect the scrap be the ones who also construct the object.

Here's an example:

1. Unarmed human is sent out to pick up scrap metal off of a wrecked car.
2. Collector returns to outpost and drops off the scrap in a small pile for later use.
3. Collector returns later and uses the scrap in the pile to reinforce a barricade.
4. Collector returns again and uses more scrap for building a gun turret.
5. Collector returns once more to use the scrap for making a small pistol.

Just small items/reinforcements can be made using the scrap...not entire buildings. The rebels don't have construction cranes!


I'll write some more about this later, tell me what you guys think!
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Re: Dysotopianism resource management in HL2Wars :-)

Post by Silver » Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:27 pm

Despite being new, and not having played the games I'm going to chip in my few cents. I'm basing this on what I feel would set this mod apart from other games, and from what I've read here, and my experience in RTS games.

First off, an RTS doesn't need a traditional resource, like gold or tiberium that is used for everything. All RTS's I've seen have them, but it's not a necessity. You can change that into something else.

Someone suggested having civilians as a resource to get troops. While this would make things interesting, it would be quite hard to balance. From what I've gathered the combine is much stronger one on one. This could of course be adjusted, the combine kidnaps people and have to kill the ones that resist, and some may run away. Despite that, it doesn't seem like a very liked idea. It wouldn't work on every map either, everything would have to be close to settlements.

There are however other ways civilians could be used as resources. All strategi games have some kind of limit to how many buildings or units you can have. In command and conquer you need power, in Starcraft and Warcraft you need food, in Age of empires you need houses. They all fill the same function.

Alternative 1.
Having something like that in this mod doesn't seem like it'd fit the scenario. A rebel base with 10 power stations feels a bit wrong. A combine base with 20 houses to be able to field soldiers too (I think, I still have no idea what I'm talking about). The sides seem a bit different from each other, and could do with different systems (I don't know if this is possible in the engine). The combine could have power stations, that needs to be built. While the rebels need civilians. Civilians would limit the amount of buildings you can have because you'd need one civilian to look after each building. It adds some strategy in what you build. You wouldn't have a single resource so that a rebel soldier costs 200 credits, or whatever. Instead you'd need an armoury to get an armour, you'd need place in your barracks for a place to sleep, and you'd need a large enough kitchen thingy to get food for him. You have that, you can recruit a soldier. If you want something better, say, a sniper, you need an upgrade for your armoury that manufactures sniper riflers (which takes a civilian worker). This way your troops could also gather the weapons of fallen enemies and deliver them to the correct building, allowing you to equip troops with them.

Alternative 2.
You could also give the players one building that makes resources trickle in. Every second you get 10 resources. For every extra civilian you rescue and get to work for you that increases by 1. They'd be shown gathering stuff in different ways, running back and fourth between a junkyard, destroyed vehicles, whatever.

Alternative 3.
Use civilans for soldiers, this would make you more careful not to lose troops, if the maximum troops you can get on the map is fixed, and from what I've heard and read, it doesn't seem like big armies run around in the HL universe. If 30 rebels die in an assault, from what I've gathered that would be a tremendous loss, and not something a little metal, or credits or whatever is going to fix. Instead resources would be used for upgrades in equipment, buildings and such. It could be gathered by regular soldiers. I've never understood why it has to be a certain type of person to gather a resource, in some games I get it, sure. That only a special spaceship can gather blood in genesis, that's fine. But if resources were scrap metal, weapons from dead enemies and such, like in TA then I don't get why normal soldiers can't pick it up.

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Re: Dysotopianism resource management in HL2Wars :-)

Post by Vaun » Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:56 pm

Theres a reason several rts games are leaving the multi-resource system, its tedious and requires more micromanaging than combat. Also, having a need for civiliand necesitates a spawnpoint for then, since people dont just materialize in the woods, and if the combine camp these, your doomed...maby requiring a certain number of units to build something on the rebel side would work, like needing 3 rebels to build a fortified wall would work, but requiring multiple resources or something would just be tedious. It should be a combination of resource income and manpower.

Like in Eire at War: The Empire (combine in this case) build bases streightforeward, with their own resources and builder units. the Rebels get advances by stealing from the empire. In this case the resistance would get higher in-flow of resources by going over the area after a battle, getting a lump sum from each weapon/destroyed vehicle/dead enemy unit they "scavenge", while their soldiers double as their builder units, unless they have another system in the works.
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Re: Dysotopianism resource management in HL2Wars :-)

Post by Neo Prophet » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:05 am

i think the fact this mod seems to reflect what we have seen in games such as company of heroes, and as such, even the beta system of resource management: a world in conflict style replenishing requisition pool and increases its maximum and replen rate with each captured location, works very well, both COH and WIC have very aggresive style multiplay, and no resource collection what so every.

without ripping off these 2 games entirely the current system shouldnt be dumped, after all, modern style rts's have all recognised that resource collection and management isnt something everyone find fun or rewarding and the only big rts in the new games line up using the old rts resource system is starcraft 2 it seems no difficult decision to me that mass resource management is not the way forwards, certainly not now.

resources arent needed to encourage growth, but resources are needed, the success of a team should not hinge on who can take and hold big deposits of materials, but should also not hinge on who takes and holds the big flag on the big hill in the middle, COH suffers from more flags = more tanks = win, and WIC suffers from more flags = win, both of these games are very fun to play however and just because thier objectives are simple doesnt reflect on the gameplay.

the end decision is that of the developers, for it is they who the end decision will reflect on, and bring glory or critisism, but if similar games should be looked at, then raw resources are not the way to go, we already have a champion combat engine layed at our feet, i dont see the point in scratch building a resource system just to hold hands with, when combat should be the focus of a game, the maps are made to create a wide variety of combat situations, and just plonking a big pile or harvestable wreckage in the middle of that isnt going to help anyone.

sub story:
lets look at how the HL universe does stuff: when was the last time gordon saw a group of rebels looking for shiny things to loot, when was the last time he saw combine looking for loot! they have a phat potal in the sky giving them everything they could ever need from back home, resorces for them are not what can i find, but what will my superior give me for not being a dumb ass and letting the rebels walk all over my new land. Rebels on the other hand are not known for thier land grabbing, any human would love to take land back from the combine, but never honestly thinks itll get them anywhere, every human knows if the combine want that vege plot, they will take that vege plot regardless, unless a rebel team can stike a nerve on a combine base, the combine should win.

the rebels dont build bases with tank factories and trench networks, they use whats already there, and if that gets attacked they bug out to somewhere else, the combine like thier fortresses, but the mod isnt about rebels winning back earth and defending the next white forest, its about looking at every little skirmish that took place all over the world when the combine think they had it but werent on the cusp of total domination, yes the combine would have bases, and yes those bases should play a key role on a combine team, but the rebels should not be treated the same, and while this mod isnt going to be quick or simple to balance time should be taken to do this because if it doesnt someone else will steal your idea and do it this way anyway, the best games are not the ones that were rushed *points at bioshock*.


in conclusion (because i know i wouldnt be bothered to read all that):

the old resorce system is a hole only to get stuck in.

hlw excels in its combat, combat should be the main insentive of any player, combat induces rewards or 'resources' should be the obvious choice (much like COH or DOW [yes i r relic fan-boy...])

maps are VERY highly detailed when only considering every other rts ever, large spaces consumed by resorces only add to wasted combat space, lag and needless re inforcing of the door which you harvester plods through once every 2 minuits (not fun).

the WIC resource system lets you try everything if the other player is trying to be defensive, end result defensive styled player is happy, and offensive player is happy.
COH resource system forces both players to be offensive, defence is not easy when the other player is land grabbing more than you, the added land limited population system prevents turtling, and both sides either sitting in a bunker waiting for the other to attack, or the average game taking 3 hours.

hlw is no place for superweapons and im hoping everone can see that, so in my eyes the clear victory solution is to have a replenishing resource pool that expands with every new captured flag, increases population limit with each captured flag (but not by a great deal, ie 100 blokes base limit, +5-10 with each new territory, with no more than 8 territories on this example map)
land should not be a deciding factor (or rebels should lose every game)

combine should have bases, and thier own buildings should be important to them, needing to build something on everything they capture before recieving any benifit would be a good start

rebels should capture and control buildings that already exist, thier starting point should not be obvious unless the map maker realy wanted it that way, keeping the combine objectives open and the rebel line of attack ever changing.

rebels should not be void of structures however, just not be allowed to produce important ones of thier own, maybe a barricade or 2 and certainly the ability to capture combine structures, but no war factories etc.

ur captured building of choice can give you what ever foot troops you desire and that the rebel effort in general is willing to donate to you, vehicles and other gubins come in BY Road (or some designated off map rout) allowing the combine to blockade such entrances, and allowing the rebels to knock such blockades out (ambitious but keeps the combat flowing) if the combine can take control of the 4ish vehicle entrances then the rebels will be left to fight on foot (thier own fault for sucking at defence)

i hope people can atleast read the conclusion and the whole thing if they are bored, this is a fairly critical game changing point, and i thank who ever made the thread, but i realy do want to get accross the point the the old style resource system is called old for a reason and while C&C is fun and always will be, we dont need a modern C&C clone, also if anyone has insider information into the resource system of Halo: Wars feel free to divulge it here (i'd bet money it doesnt involve marines and grunts playing treasure hunt)
Last edited by Neo Prophet on Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dysotopianism resource management in HL2Wars :-)

Post by Neo Prophet » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:05 am

would anyone like more of a from-heart essay lol

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Re: Dysotopianism resource management in HL2Wars :-)

Post by Vaun » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:10 pm

You missed the poing of what im saying. The combine get resources/supplies from the combine overworld, the rebels get bonuses from recovering weapons and such from the combine, because they use guerilla tactics, and cant just buy guns, so they get a cash bonus from recovering weaponry (because they cant pick them up and wield them as far as i know).
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Re: Dysotopianism resource management in HL2Wars :-)

Post by Neo Prophet » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:33 pm

that would make a rebels imposible to play defensively, and would lag out horribly as the game has to track every dropped weapon and item, also, if the combine retreat each of thier units before they die, the rebels will never get any resorces, while the combine's will constantly grow. im not saying combine arent better anyway, but for game perposes each team should play to thier strong points, while still allowing offensive and defensive play from either team.

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Re: Dysotopianism resource management in HL2Wars :-)

Post by Neo Prophet » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:41 pm

also hl2 does have built in scripts for rebels picking up weapons on the ground, since every dead combine does drop a weapon, and im pretty sure i have seen a rebel pick up the odd AR2 and shotgun off the floor, but there is no way of invocing this, and to allow rebels to recieve resorces when picking stuff up would require a complete recode of every dropped weapon and item, and also means trying to invent something for the rebels to recieve when bigger things like striders and hunters are killed, and what resources would zombies and antlions drop anyway? anything the rebels pick up would have to be first hand useful, as there is no way of trading or manufacturing if you consider each rebel team as an isolated group, my point was to have the rebels connected to the rebel network, just as the combines are connected to thier homeworld, more for the sake of balance than accuracy, however there must be some rebel hub and network since there are numerous references to it in hl2 and ep2. it just seems a waste of resources (forgive the pun) to have a rebel network available and not use it.

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Re: Dysotopianism resource management in HL2Wars :-)

Post by Neo Prophet » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:00 pm

also while guerrilla tactics work fine in cities, they are not effective in straight firefights or in big open spaces (ie out side the cities) or places where its just them and thier enemy, so i dont realy think the rebels can use that to thier advantage, atleast not in this mod.
and your right, there is no trade or economy, hence the system of requisition, where you dont have to go into detail on how each side gets thier stuff, just that they are allowed to by thier suppliers, whoever they may be, so its not neccessary to specificaly say that the rebels can pick up weapons off the floor and use them, even though at the moment they can, because most of the time, you dont want the guy who picked up that weapon to use that weapon, and if we were going on realism he would then have to go all the way back to HQ to drop it off, to the point where the rebels start having to requit scavenger units, and then we're pretty much just back at the old resource system.

there will obviously have to be a ballance between realism and simplicity, and if the super powers of the RTS world belive simplicity is the way forward, its not our place to question them, and my justification being is because more people would like it this way, and seeing as this is the best rts conversion out there, we should go with this, if another rts comes up, then by all means they should try it differently, and then the people who like the old system can play that, but i dont belive the old system should be used to pioneer something like this.

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Re: Dysotopianism resource management in HL2Wars :-)

Post by fighter84 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:07 am

ive read through all ur guys ideas they are VERY good.
But rly all u need for all sides of the mod is, Power,Metal,and a "soldier limit"
Think about it, the combine have thousands of soldiers at their disposal as well as cops, wouldnt there be a time where breen porbbaly said, "ok stop unit production, we'll use this many troops for this, when they're gone well make more so we dont waste our time and resources." now as for the rebels, cmon they rly arew struggling here,they're fighting alien for pete sake, rly also the combinre have earth at a stranglehold.They're arent many humans left so technically there would hav to be a limit to what each side could make
lets say 350 people at one time.
vehicels, different story u wouldnt have to worry because are u rly gonna find that many resources of power and metal to build a large force of vehicles. I MEAN RLY CMON.
power would be needed, so would metal, like u need anything else.
DOnt go sappy about food for troops, kill a deer for all u want so 2 resources, micro management. thats fine.
i know
there would be lets say 6 SCRAP piles with unlimited metal that u could use on the map.U want more, battle the enemy for em.want low income stay with what u have.
THERES ALWAYS A LOOP HOLE. And for power yeh all u gotta do is make generators which produce a slow income.There ur problem is solved.
I prove my point.


for the record im a genius trust me, not in games and hardware but logical thinking.
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Re: Dysotopianism resource management in HL2Wars :-)

Post by Dr_evil288 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:59 pm

Pleased to see this thread is still active XD
**WARNING, POST COULD CONTAIN POINTLESS SPECULATION!**

Idea for troop management:

"The personal touch", where smaller squads can be upgraded selectively and discriminatorily. Micromanagement is encouraged. Think DOW and COH. This could boil down to a system like this; at the barracks you produce an Officer. The Officer is essentially a squad commander. The squad is then formulated by attaching certain troop choices, such as the Shotgun Combine, or the SMG Rebel to the commander. This allows squads to be handcrafted to a certain purpose, such as a heavy AR2 troop to lay down the hurt from afar, while a squad of SMG and Shot-gunners skirmish close range. This also opens up interesting possibilities for balance, as 1 squad of RPG troops technically own everything. So, what could be done could be a slot system, where each commander gets a load-out of 8. A simple SMG could only take up 1 slot, a Shotgun 2, a AR2 2 slots, and a RPG or a heavy weapon such as a crossbow 4. This should balance out the weapons.
The advantages of this system are numerous. Firstly, it is relatively skill non-specific, allowing for advanced players to kit out troops selectively to an opponent. It also caters well to n00bs who to may just find it simpler to combat an enemy with squads who all have the same weapons, allowing the squad to act as one big force.

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Re: Dysotopianism resource management in HL2Wars :-)

Post by HellSpawn » Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:54 am

Dr_evil288 wrote:Pleased to see this thread is still active XD
**WARNING, POST COULD CONTAIN POINTLESS SPECULATION!**

Idea for troop management:

"The personal touch", where smaller squads can be upgraded selectively and discriminatorily. Micromanagement is encouraged. Think DOW and COH. This could boil down to a system like this; at the barracks you produce an Officer. The Officer is essentially a squad commander. The squad is then formulated by attaching certain troop choices, such as the Shotgun Combine, or the SMG Rebel to the commander. This allows squads to be handcrafted to a certain purpose, such as a heavy AR2 troop to lay down the hurt from afar, while a squad of SMG and Shot-gunners skirmish close range. This also opens up interesting possibilities for balance, as 1 squad of RPG troops technically own everything. So, what could be done could be a slot system, where each commander gets a load-out of 8. A simple SMG could only take up 1 slot, a Shotgun 2, a AR2 2 slots, and a RPG or a heavy weapon such as a crossbow 4. This should balance out the weapons.
The advantages of this system are numerous. Firstly, it is relatively skill non-specific, allowing for advanced players to kit out troops selectively to an opponent. It also caters well to n00bs who to may just find it simpler to combat an enemy with squads who all have the same weapons, allowing the squad to act as one big force.
This is quite similar to the command system of the RTS game Warzone 2100, one could have a commander, and attach multiple units to it, but only a certain amount until it levelled up, after which more units could be attached
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Re: Dysotopianism resource management in HL2Wars :-)

Post by Dr_evil288 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:09 am

HellSpawn wrote:This is quite similar to the command system of the RTS game Warzone 2100, one could have a commander, and attach multiple units to it, but only a certain amount until it levelled up, after which more units could be attached
XD, love Warzone 2100, but could never get past the first level :oops: .

Hmm, today I put my Robin Walker hat on and pitch to you one of the key resource problems. By directing the forums might to one problem at a time, I think it could be easier to reach a general consensus on where we think, as players of the mod, development could go.

KEY PROBLEM: How does a commander gain troops in an easy and intuitive way without sullying the semi-realistic feel of the game?

Things to think about:
1) In the HL2 universe, humanity is facing extinction in 20 years due to the combine suppression field, ergo people are rare. I think having a 'Limitless' supply of troops for the Combine or Rebels is unrealistic and spoils the feel of the Half Life 2 RTS.
2) In the HL2 universe, propaganda is prevalent, hence the 'Breen-casts'. Could a troop system be centered around propaganda stations, which allows you to build in turn more units? Think of Ork Waghhh banners in DOW for how this could work as a game mechanic.
3) Should troops be recruited or produced?
4) Which is more important, the single trooper, or the squad as a whole?

I eagerly await your ideas!

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