Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

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Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

Post by Sandern » Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:11 pm

This thread is for discussion of the balance of the game. To make it easier to reason about this, you can find all the unit and building statistics here:

Units: http://hl2wars.com/unitstats/stats.html
Attributes: http://hl2wars.com/unitstats/attributes.html

Note that this shows all the statistics of the development version. You can find the revision and generation date at the top (SVN-XXX) and the SVN log HERE.

You can also view the stats of just the combine or rebels:
http://hl2wars.com/unitstats/combine.html
http://hl2wars.com/unitstats/rebels.html

Here's a short explanation of some of the stats:
  • View distance - The max distance the fog of war is cleared around the unit
  • Sense distance - The distance at which an unit will start engaging an enemy
  • DPS- Damage per second (firerate * damage * accuracy)
Also keep the following things in mind:
  • Most weapons apply a spread. This is currently not listed in the statistics, but it will make the weapons less effective at long range (especially the shotgun).
  • Units have attributes. Attributes give bonus damage against units with certain other attributes. For example the "bullet" attribute gives a bonus of "3" damage per fired shot against units with the "light" attribute. You can see these stats in the hud when selecting a single unit and hovering the mouse above the attributes.
  • The RPG weapon applies some splash damage. This is currently also not obvious from the statistics.
  • The Hunter shoots in bursts.

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Re: Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

Post by HEVcrab » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:58 pm

My considerations concerning the balance and units:

1) I think partisans should be less accurate than soldiers, but have the same bullet damage, since they fire the SMG1 as well.

2) AR2 is overpowering according to the stats...better return its damage to 8, so that the DPS would become 32.
You did well to drop AR2's time between shots to the value that's greater by a quarter than the SMG's (0.25 s vs 0.2 s), that's HL2-like as well, in HL2 the AR2 doesn't fire as rapidly as the SMG does.

3) The floor turret most likely uses the same infantry-version AR2, so maybe give AR2's damage, range and rate of fire stats to it, decreasing its cost to 3r 1p or 3 kills?

4) The mountable turrets would better be 10 dmg - 0.10 speed instead of 20 dmg - 0.20 speed. The DPS will be the same, and the rate of fire will increase, in HL2 the mounted guns fire more rapidly than AR2s as well.

5) The shotgun damage should be 32 to rival other weapons, taking its shorter range into consideration. Its DPS =damage/speed will be 40 then, just a little more than 32 for AR2.

So the shotgun and AR2 will be approximately balanced, given their equal unlocking cost.

6) Enable metrocops to mount turrets, they did it in HL2 (remember the beginning of Route Kanal).

7) Increase the point capture time a little more, to 30 seconds (see the next point for the explanation).

8.1) Limit the manhacks' lifetime to 30 seconds (adding the energy bar - 'battery life'), so that it would become impossible to use them as instant captors of all the points on the map.
8.2) Return the manhack deployment cooldown to 15 seconds for the reason of their limited lifetime

9) Make the construction of mountable turrets require Munitions Depot for rebels in Annihilation mode.

10) Make Unlock Rebel Veteran/Combine Elite possible only if one of their primary weapons (AR2/shotgun) is unlocked.

11) Enable Rebel Veterans to throw grenades for Q hotkey if grenades are unlocked.

12) Make the Combine Elites' energy sphere ability
12.1) require AR2 weapon unlocked and selected for the unit (shotgun doesn't have the energy sphere barrel);
12.2) require special unlock in the Armory.

13) Decrease the cost of shotgunners and Arie2's in Overrun both for combine and rebels...there is no point in hiring one Arie2 instead of 4 SMG soldiers. Make the Shotgunner and Arie2 cost 2k (with new weapon stats this will be fair).

14) 150 for combine sniper rifle damage is too much, the rifle shouldn't be more powerful than the RPG.
Decrease it to 105, for the DPS to be 30 like Rebel RPG.

15) Combine sniper health shouldn't be less than a regular soldier's health, they most likely have the same armor,
please set their hp back from 105 to 200.

16) I think the combine scanners (observers) should not detect cloaked units. Rebels cannot do anything to an observer, and the rebel scout is still vulnerable to manhacks, grenades and energy spheres when cloaked (this makes sense, I agree).
BTW, maybe make the scout totally invisible to enemy players, leaving him partially visible (current cloak-style) to the controlling player and his allies?

17) Currently the strider's range is 1024, the turrets' range (both types) is also 1024. When the turrets' range was the same as the soldiers' range (820) , the turrets were getting outranged by soldiers. Maybe decrease the strider's range a little (maybe to 1000, testing will figure it out) to avoid outranging by striders?

*2 b continued*
Testers gonna test.

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Re: Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

Post by Sandern » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:48 pm

HEVcrab wrote:My considerations concerning the balance and units:

1) I think partisans should be less accurate than soldiers, but have the same bullet damage, since they fire the SMG1 as well. [/color]=> Currently accuracy is just implemented as a damage modifier, so it will just lower the damage. We will likely do that, or maybe change the weapon from the smg to a pistol.

2) AR2 is overpowering according to the stats...better return its damage to 8, so that the DPS would become 32.
You did well to drop AR2's time between shots to the value that's greater by a quarter than the SMG's (0.25 s vs 0.2 s), that's HL2-like as well, in HL2 the AR2 doesn't fire as rapidly as the SMG does. => Then again, it takes some research + buildings before you can recruite soldiers with ar2, so I'm not sure if it's really needed.

3) The floor turret most likely uses the same infantry-version AR2, so maybe give AR2's damage, range and rate of fire stats to it, decreasing its cost to 3r 1p or 3 kills? => Could be considered

4) The mountable turrets would better be 10 dmg - 0.10 speed instead of 20 dmg - 0.20 speed. The DPS will be the same, and the rate of fire will increase, in HL2 the mounted guns fire more rapidly than AR2s as well. => Will be considered

5) The shotgun damage should be 32 to rival other weapons, taking its shorter range into consideration. Its DPS =damage/speed will be 40 then, just a little more than 32 for AR2.

So the shotgun and AR2 will be approximately balanced, given their equal unlocking cost.

=>It will most likely be something like that

6) Enable metrocops to mount turrets, they did it in HL2 (remember the beginning of Route Kanal).=> Will be added

7) Increase the point capture time a little more, to 30 seconds (see the next point for the explanation).
=> Will be considered, it's currently 24 seconds. Although I would actually like a more interesting capture system

8.1) Limit the manhacks' lifetime to 30 seconds (adding the energy bar - 'battery life'), so that it would become impossible to use them as instant captors of all the points on the map.
8.2) Return the manhack deployment cooldown to 15 seconds for the reason of their limited lifetime

=> Will be considered, would need to add something to the hud for it

9) Make the construction of mountable turrets require Munitions Depot for rebels in Annihilation mode.

=> Will be considered/probably added

10) Make Unlock Rebel Veteran/Combine Elite possible only if one of their primary weapons (AR2/shotgun) is unlocked.

=> Aren't they always unlocked? Otherwise it's a bug

11) Enable Rebel Veterans to throw grenades for Q hotkey if grenades are unlocked.

=> Will be considered

12) Make the Combine Elites' energy sphere ability
12.1) require AR2 weapon unlocked and selected for the unit (shotgun doesn't have the energy sphere barrel);
12.2) require special unlock in the Armory.

=> That's something I still needed to add, i.e. make the closest unit with the ability to the target point do the ability. However, that wouldn't solve it fully, so I think it's also better if the energy ball ignores collision with friendly units

13) Decrease the cost of shotgunners and Arie2's in Overrun both for combine and rebels...there is no point in hiring one Arie2 instead of 4 SMG soldiers. Make the Shotgunner and Arie2 cost 2k (with new weapon stats this will be fair).

=> Will be considered

14) 150 for combine sniper rifle damage is too much, the rifle shouldn't be more powerful than the RPG.
Decrease it to 105, for the DPS to be 30 like Rebel RPG.

=> Will be considered

15) Combine sniper health shouldn't be less than a regular soldier's health, they most likely have the same armor,
please set their hp back from 105 to 200.

=> Will be considered

16) I think the combine scanners (observers) should not detect cloaked units. Rebels cannot do anything to an observer, and the rebel scout is still vulnerable to manhacks, grenades and energy spheres when cloaked (this makes sense, I agree).
BTW, maybe make the scout totally invisible to enemy players, leaving him partially visible (current cloak-style) to the controlling player and his allies?

=> Rebels can make the observer detectable with the scan ability at the headquarters.

17) Currently the strider's range is 1024, the turrets' range (both types) is also 1024. When the turrets' range was the same as the soldiers' range (820) , the turrets were getting outranged by soldiers. Maybe decrease the strider's range a little (maybe to 1000, testing will figure it out) to avoid outranging by striders?

=> What's wrong with being outranged by striders?

*2 b continued*
Added comments in green.

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Re: Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

Post by HEVcrab » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:34 pm

Continuing our discussion:

1)Concerning the partisans: if you give'em pistols instead of SMGs or decrease their damage to 2, they will be just like scouts, but with less health, less speed and without infiltration ability, and still costing 1r.

2) AR2 is overpowering according to the stats...better return its damage to 8, so that the DPS would become 32.
You did well to drop AR2's time between shots to the value that's greater by a quarter than the SMG's (0.25 s vs 0.2 s), that's HL2-like as well, in HL2 the AR2 doesn't fire as rapidly as the SMG does. => Then again, it takes some research + buildings before you can recruit soldiers with ar2, so I'm not sure if it's really needed.

The RPG needs research and buildings as well. Its DPS is 30.
Currently from the info in the table, AR2's damage is 12 and DPS is 48, that's much more than the RPG!
Yes, I take into account the first-strike damage advantage of RPGs. But RPG soldiers are much more expensive, being the most expensive rebel human units.
Therefore I think that the HL2-like damage value of 8 and DPS=32 will be balanced enough.


8.1) Limit the manhacks' lifetime to 30 seconds (adding the energy bar - 'battery life'), so that it would become impossible to use them as instant captors of all the points on the map.
8.2) Return the manhack deployment cooldown to 15 seconds for the reason of their limited lifetime

=> Will be considered, would need to add something to the hud for it

Yes. BTW, Medic, Vortigaunt and the Rebel HQ building already have energy for abilities, represented by the blue bar just above the unit (above the health bar) and blue number in the HUD.
In the case of Manhack, this bar will be depleting with time (and the number will be going down from 30 to 0 at a rate of 1 per second).
So in fact designing a new HUD element for the manhack isn't really necessary.
If you insist on some reflection of this in the HUD though, you can add the energy bar to the unit's icon appearing in the HUD when the unit is selected (above the health bar as well), and do this not for the manhack only but for the Medic and the Vortigaunt as well.


10) Make Unlock Rebel Veteran/Combine Elite possible only if one of their primary weapons (AR2/shotgun) is unlocked.

=> Aren't they always unlocked? Otherwise it's a bug

No, the veterans/elites are NOT always unlocked. Currently there's a button 'Unlock Veteran (Elite)' in the Munitions Depot (Armory).
If AR2 and shotgun are not unlocked but veteran/elite is unlocked, the recruited veterans/elites have AR2s (though the weapon is locked) but are unable to switch weapons.
Elites recruited this way can fire energy balls. I think that for balance the elite's energy sphere ability should be unlocked separately.

*Moved from the other topic, 'cause this is related to balance, too*
Please add the AR2 soldier/Shotgun soldier recruit buttons to Barracks/Garrison in Annihilation, because when the more powerful weapons are already unlocked, recruiting soldiers with SMGs and re-arming them is inconvenient and causes senseless expenses (just according to common sense).
(The earlier-recruited SMG soldiers' ability to re-arm should be preserved, of course).

I think they should cost the same or a little less than the Veterans/Elites (5r 1s/5r 1p), because they can be issued much quicker (25 seconds vs 60 for rebels and 40 seconds vs 70 for combine), while still having serious firepower with AR2s/shotguns and grenades.


12) Make the Combine Elites' energy sphere ability
12.1) require AR2 weapon unlocked and selected for the unit (shotgun doesn't have the energy sphere barrel);
12.2) require special unlock in the Armory.

=> That's something I still needed to add, i.e. make the closest unit with the ability to the target point do the ability. However, that wouldn't solve it fully, so I think it's also better if the energy ball ignores collision with friendly units

Here you have answered my other question :) , from this topic: http://hl2wars.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1396
and I admit that the AR2 question partly doubles the question 10 ))


17) Currently the strider's range is 1024, the turrets' range (both types) is also 1024. When the turrets' range was the same as the soldiers' range (820) , the turrets were getting outranged by soldiers. Maybe decrease the strider's range a little (maybe to 1000, testing will figure it out) to avoid outranging by striders?

=> What's wrong with being outranged by striders?

Firstly, the mountable turret and the strider use the same pulse machinegun.
Secondly, the strider is such a big target, so I don't think it will be unnoticed by the turret operator even on the brink of sight))
Testers gonna test.

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Re: Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

Post by VisualMelon » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:20 pm

Small thing - I think that Man-hacks should have an energy cost (i.e. 1)

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Re: Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

Post by Sandern » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:35 pm

VisualMelon wrote:Small thing - I think that Man-hacks should have an energy cost (i.e. 1)
As lifespan? Or to deploy the manhack as metro police?

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Re: Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

Post by HEVcrab » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:37 pm

VisualMelon wrote:Small thing - I think that Man-hacks should have an energy cost (i.e. 1)
2 Sandern
I think VisualMelon meant 'power' resource cost by 'energy', 1r 1p instead of just 1r))
Maybe add 1p cost to hoppers as well?

2 VisualMelon
Energy is a different parameter that some units and buildings have (Medics, Vorts and rebel HQ), I suggested that manhacks should have limited battery life, represented with energy bar.
Testers gonna test.

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Re: Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

Post by VisualMelon » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:34 pm

Sorry, I do mean Power, not energy, and I think it is perfectly justifiable giving Man-hacks a limited lifespan, so long as they are made a little more effective. The useful thing about man-hacks is how quick they are to deploy, and on occasion I've effectively sacrificed them anyway to make room for troops.

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Re: Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

Post by Nqss[RUS] » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:25 am

HEVcrab wrote: 3) The floor turret most likely uses the same infantry-version AR2, so maybe give AR2's damage, range and rate of fire stats to it, decreasing its cost to 3r 1p or 3 kills?
but what about PvP? It cost alot there , time consuming research and deployement
i suggested before to increse it stats , so it will be more usefull and pay its own cost
as it cant move , takes alot of resources to research and produce and also takes alot of time of all that. Why would i build that(and spend all the time) if it is not going to fight back well?
HEVcrab wrote: 5) The shotgun damage should be 32 to rival other weapons, taking its shorter range into consideration. Its DPS =damage/speed will be 40 then, just a little more than 32 for AR2.
As far as i know bullets does same damage for such unit as strider.....sooo couple shotgunners going to screw up the strider?
HEVcrab wrote: 8.1) Limit the manhacks' lifetime to 30 seconds (adding the energy bar - 'battery life'), so that it would become impossible to use them as instant captors of all the points on the map.
8.2) Return the manhack deployment cooldown to 15 seconds for the reason of their limited lifetime
you simply can make them unable to capture flags
you know , scanners cant capture , but manhacks can?

HEVcrab wrote: 14) 150 for combine sniper rifle damage is too much, the rifle shouldn't be more powerful than the RPG.
Decrease it to 105, for the DPS to be 30 like Rebel RPG.
im going to argue with this suggestion
so you are making sniper weaker on damage?(not agree)
The RPG rebel is capable to kill several units in one rocket , especially weak ones , to clean up the enemy wave(im speaking of Annihilation)
The sniper can kill just single unit per shoot
But there is heavy units of the enemy in the wave (can be) , so sniper can likely shoot it

if RPG guy gonna have 2-3 shots into huge number of enemies , there is going to be a huge amount of DPS , which sniper cant outshoot
So , thinking of vorts / vet rebels / hunters / elite combines <- sniper defenetly suppose to handle those units fast

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Re: Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

Post by katouska » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:27 pm

2) AR2 is overpowering according to the stats...better return its damage to 8, so that the DPS would become 32.
You did well to drop AR2's time between shots to the value that's greater by a quarter than the SMG's (0.25 s vs 0.2 s), that's HL2-like as well, in HL2 the AR2 doesn't fire as rapidly as the SMG does.

the ar2 is fine as it is, you need research and after that you need to pay for giving it to your soldier, so it is fine.

3) The floor turret most likely uses the same infantry-version AR2, so maybe give AR2's damage, range and rate of fire stats to it, decreasing its cost to 3r 1p or 3 kills?

no,the floor turret require research and take population slot that could be use for somethings else.

4) The mountable turrets would better be 10 dmg - 0.10 speed instead of 20 dmg - 0.20 speed. The DPS will be the same, and the rate of fire will increase, in HL2 the mounted guns fire more rapidly than AR2s as well.

it would be more prety, but since it do not affect gaymplay, there is more important.

8.1) Limit the manhacks' lifetime to 30 seconds (adding the energy bar - 'battery life'), so that it would become impossible to use them as instant captors of all the points on the map.
8.2) Return the manhack deployment cooldown to 15 seconds for the reason of their limited lifetime

just make the manhack unable to capture point, they don't need to have limitated lifetime.

10) Make Unlock Rebel Veteran/Combine Elite possible only if one of their primary weapons (AR2/shotgun) is unlocked.

i don't think its necessary since those unit are not really op.

12) Make the Combine Elites' energy sphere ability
12.1) require AR2 weapon unlocked and selected for the unit (shotgun doesn't have the energy sphere barrel);
12.2) require special unlock in the Armory.

is this really necessary for the game balance? if not i would say no.

13) Decrease the cost of shotgunners and Arie2's in Overrun both for combine and rebels...there is no point in hiring one Arie2 instead of 4 SMG soldiers. Make the Shotgunner and Arie2 cost 2k (with new weapon stats this will be fair).

i agree with this.

14) 150 for combine sniper rifle damage is too much, the rifle shouldn't be more powerful than the RPG.
Decrease it to 105, for the DPS to be 30 like Rebel RPG.

the rpg can deal dommage to many unit in one shot while the rifle can't, it is why the rifle should have highter dommage than the rpg.

15) Combine sniper health shouldn't be less than a regular soldier's health, they most likely have the same armor,
please set their hp back from 105 to 200.

i would rather change the skin of the combine sniper, even if in half-life 2 they are in the same outfit, this is a rts, we need to be easily able to recognize any kind of unit. there are many good skin of combine on gmod that would fit well to the sniper like this one: http://www.garrysmod.org/downloads/?a=view&id=123995

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Re: Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

Post by Sandern » Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:20 am

katouska wrote: 8.1) Limit the manhacks' lifetime to 30 seconds (adding the energy bar - 'battery life'), so that it would become impossible to use them as instant captors of all the points on the map.
8.2) Return the manhack deployment cooldown to 15 seconds for the reason of their limited lifetime

just make the manhack unable to capture point, they don't need to have limitated lifetime.

=>Will be done for 2.0.4. Will probably also add support for limited lifetimes at a later point, but don't know if we will then use it for the manhack. We could also limit the move range of the manhack around the metro police.

13) Decrease the cost of shotgunners and Arie2's in Overrun both for combine and rebels...there is no point in hiring one Arie2 instead of 4 SMG soldiers. Make the Shotgunner and Arie2 cost 2k (with new weapon stats this will be fair).

i agree with this.

=>Will be done for 2.0.4. I changed it to "2 scrap" for the rebel soldier to get either shotgun or ar2. And changed combine to "1 req + 2 power" to get shotgun and "2 req + 2 power" to get ar2.

15) Combine sniper health shouldn't be less than a regular soldier's health, they most likely have the same armor,
please set their hp back from 105 to 200.

i would rather change the skin of the combine sniper, even if in half-life 2 they are in the same outfit, this is a rts, we need to be easily able to recognize any kind of unit. there are many good skin of combine on gmod that would fit well to the sniper like this one: http://www.garrysmod.org/downloads/?a=view&id=123995

=> Someone would need to change it then...
In green.

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Re: Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

Post by katouska » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:14 pm

=>Will be done for 2.0.4. Will probably also add support for limited lifetimes at a later point, but don't know if we will then use it for the manhack. We could also limit the move range of the manhack around the metro police.


i think they just need to be unable to capture the point and they will be ok. if it was not the fact that they can easily capture each point of the map they would be well balanced

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Re: Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

Post by HEVcrab » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:19 am

What are the AR2/shotgun/sniper rifle weapon stats now?
In Annihilation description says 12 damage, 0.2 speed for AR2 and 48 damage, 0.8 speed for shotgun.
In Overrun description says 8 damage, 0.2 speed for AR2 and 32 damage, 0.8 speed for shotgun.
Are the stats different for different gamemodes?
BTW, the attack speed for AR2 was meant to be changed to 0.25 (slightly decreasing the firerate), according to the units' stats page.

And for the Sandbox testing...Are the units spawned with attribute 'e' somewhat stronger?
My AR2 soldier hardly beat the 'e' SMG soldier, having only a third of health left.
Testers gonna test.

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Re: Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

Post by Sandern » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:38 pm

HEVcrab wrote:What are the AR2/shotgun/sniper rifle weapon stats now?
In Annihilation description says 12 damage, 0.2 speed for AR2 and 48 damage, 0.8 speed for shotgun.
In Overrun description says 8 damage, 0.2 speed for AR2 and 32 damage, 0.8 speed for shotgun.
Are the stats different for different gamemodes?
BTW, the attack speed for AR2 was meant to be changed to 0.25 (slightly decreasing the firerate), according to the units' stats page.
Rebel veteran and combine elite do 12 damage per fired ar2 shot because they have an increased accuracy. A regular combine or rebel soldier with ar2 do 8 damage per shot. It was displaying 0.2 as firerate because it was rounded of to 1 decimal. I will change that to two decimal.

The Overrun mode only uses different build times for units (instantly).
HEVcrab wrote:And for the Sandbox testing...Are the units spawned with attribute 'e' somewhat stronger?
My AR2 soldier hardly beat the 'e' SMG soldier, having only a third of health left.
attribute 'e' ?

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Re: Unit Balance and statistics Discussion

Post by HEVcrab » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:58 pm

By the 'attribute' I mean the drop-down box of Sandbox unit spawning menu, determining which player the unit will belong to.

-
n
e
p1
p2
...

If you choose '-', then the unit will be under your control. In case of 'n',
the unit has a white team color and is neutral (and unattackable), and 'e' is for enemy, I guess, 'cause this case the unit has a red team color (like in Overrun) and attacks my units.
Testers gonna test.

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